The Optimistic American - Audio Edition

Jun 14, 2023

In this episode of The Optimistic American, Paul Johnson welcomes North Arizona University’s Martin-Springer Institute Director Bjorn Krondorfer to discuss his new book Unsettling Empathy (Peace and Security in the 21st Century).

The two discuss Professor Krondorfer’s work in the context of the Holocaust and genocides, the concept of “chosen trauma”, and what’s happening with divisions and extremisms in America today.

• Paul opens the discussion by indicating the link between the divisions in America and genocide and extremism.
• Professor Krondorfer opens up about what led him to make genocides, the holocaust, and extremist movements the focus of his work and research.
• A desire for empathy that unsettles our assumptions about ourselves, about history, and about what we think is what led Professor Krondorfer to write his book Unsettling Empathy.
• Prof. Krondorfer discusses what happened when a group of German and Jewish students met at the end of the ‘80s to discuss their different narratives related to what happened in the Holocaust.
• For Prof. Krondorfer, in former perpetrator societies, the next generation has to be suspicious of the narratives that are being passed on to them.
• Paul and Prof. Krondorfer touch upon the good and evil that are inside all of us, the role propaganda makes – and how it’s the common denominator in genocides such as the Holocaust and the Rwandan genocide.
• Prof. Krondorfer explains why, throughout several decades, “Chosen Trauma” is a concept that has posed a threat to various societies and cultures around the world.
• It’s easier for unsettling empathy and honest communication to occur when a conflict is over and we’re living in the aftermath (like in the case of the Holocaust) compared to an ongoing conflict like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
• Paul discusses the concept of amygdala hijacking and the “formula” for trying to move a block of people.
• Professor Bjorn Krondorfer touches upon what “forgiving the unforgiving” entails, and why the focus shouldn’t be so much on forgiveness, but rather on reconciliation practices.
• Prof. Krondorfer unpacks the question, “What’s going on with the divisions in America today?”
• Paul introduces the idea of post-partisanism – and the challenges it would bring about – into the conversation.

Mentioned in This Episode:

optamerican.com

Addictive Ideologies: Finding Meaning and Agency When Politics Fail You by Dr Emily Bashah and Hon Paul Johnson

Unsettling Empathy (Peace and Security in the 21st Century) by Bjorn Krondorfer

North Arizona University

Temple University 

Dr. Emily Bashah

Vamik Volkan

John McCain

Martin Luther King

New York Times